Your humble contributor is an avid political enthusiast, science junkie, former small business owner, limited government, constitutionalist, and all around lover of liberty.
I make every effort to use logic and reasoning, not hate, ad hominem attacks, nor logical fallacy arguments.
I’m going to assume you’ve all heard of Miranda rights, correct?
It’s some version of this, depending on the state:
You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.
You have the right to an attorney.
If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish.
In the United States, the fifth amendment reads as follows:
Fifth Amendment
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Miranda addresses the part about not being compelled to be a witness against yourself. You see, back in 1963, Ernesto Miranda decided to kidnap a women, then put his dick some place it didn’t belong.
Ernesto Miranda
The police picked him up, questioned him for two hours, and eventually obtained a written confession from him. At no point however, did police tell Ernesto that he had a right to a lawyer.
So armed with the confession, Arizona prosecuted his ass—easily winning their case against him.
Miranda eventually obtained a lawyer, however, who decided that there should be a fucking rule that forces police to advise a person of their rights when they’re arrested. Without that, such confessions should be thrown out, as a lawyer may have advised their client to say or do something quite different from what they actually said and did.
Folks, remember four words if you’re ever being questioned by police: “SHUT THE FUCK UP!” That’s it. SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Ask for a lawyer, and say nothing, no matter what the situation is. Period. Always. Every fucking time. Got it?
It’s not that police are bad, but when you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Police tend to feel like everyone they’re talking to is a bad actor. So on the off chance you might say something that makes them question your innocence, even when you are innocent, you could find yourself in a bad situation because you failed to SHUT THE FUCK UP.
Anyway, Miranda won at SCOTUS and his confession was thrown out, making his trial a mistrial. Since appellate victories don’t trigger the double jeopardy rule, Arizona tried Miranda again, without the confession, and still won.
So while Miranda changed US Law forever—helping innocent people not get railroaded by aggressive government tactics, that fucker was guilty as sin, and his SCOTUS victory didn’t help him one iota.
This is a law that says, if government violates your constitutional rights, you can fucking sue them for civil damages.
Miranda and code 1983 are what’s at issue here in this case.
Terence Tekoh was a low-level patient transporter at a Los Angeles hospital.
Terence Tekoh
A young lady was in the hospital, and at one point, under heavy sedation. During that time, she asserted that Tekoh channeled his inner Miranda and stuck a finger in her vagina while she was in the hospital.
The hospital called the fuzz, and Officer Carlos Vega showed up, questioned Tekoh for some time, without ever reading him his Miranda rights, and eventually Tekow wrote an apology for touching the patient inappropriately, which was deemed as a confession.
However, Tekoh was acquitted in his second trial after an initial mistrial.
I’m not sure how someone’s first hand testimony that he molested them wasn’t sufficient for a conviction, but I guess I have to trust the 12 angry men on this one.
Anyway, Tekoh, feeling like he won the lottery after his acquittal decided to double down and sue Officer Vega for violating his constitutional rights.
He argued that he didn’t vountarily talk with Vega, Vega pulled him aside, called him a bunch of racial slurs, threatened to deport his family, and a whole host of other shit, until he confessed.
I won’t bore you with the lower court shit, just know it made it to SCOTUS, and their question was, is Miranda a constitutional right, and if so, can Tekoh sue if he’s not Mirandized?
Let’s go to the arguments:
Roman Martinez
First up: Roman Martinez representing officer Vega.
He opened by arguing Miranda is simply a prophylactic rule designed to protect a person’s fifth amendment rights, and is not a right in and of itself. Just because you’re not mirandized, doesn’t necessarily mean your constitutional rights were violated.
He argues that while Miranda helps protect the fifth amendment rights of the individual, if some moron just blurts out a confession before officers mirandized them, you can’t fairly say the cops violated their constitutional rights and coerced a confession.
He argues that Vega merely took Tekoh’s statement. There was no evidence of coercion, courts and juries didn’t feel Vega did anything wrong, Tekoh just blurted out what he had done.
Justice Thomas was the first to chime in, since he has seniority and all. He asked about a previous case, Dickerson V. United States. So let’s discuss that for a minute.
Associate Justice Clarence Thomas
In that case, congress has passed 18 U.S. Code § 3501 – Admissibility of confessions. This statute came about after the Miranda case law was established, and was congress’ attempt to legislate away Miranda rights by saying voluntary confessions given before Miranda rights are given, should be admissible in court.
However, SCOTUS told congress to go pound sand with this shit, and the reason why is very important.
I know I go off on tangents—not even gonna apologize for that. Eat my entire ass if you don’t like it—I’m trying to learn y’all something.
The courts job is to interpret laws, regulations, executive orders, the constitution, and other case law. When they do this, it establishes new case law. But not all laws are on the same tier.
In the case of Miranda, they were interpreting the constitution. The case law they created in Miranda therefore is at the constitutional tier. Congress pass statutes, but they are on a lower tier to the constitution. So while congress could create new statutes to invalidate case law regarding a statute, they can’t write a statute invalidating case law over a constitutional principle, otherwise a law would be trumping the constitution. This is Dickerson in a nutshell. SCOTUS ruled in Dickerson, that congress cannot legislate away constitutional case law.
OK, done digressing, back to the case.
Justice Thomas wanted to know if Dickerson destroyed Vega’s case. If SCOTUS ruled that Miranda couldn’t be overruled solely by statute, then doesn’t that make Miranda a constitutional issue, and therefore qualify it as a constitutional violation?
But Counsel Martinez was like, “Nah, man. Miranda protects a constitutional right, but it isn’t a right in and of itself. It’s constitution-adjacent.”
Justice Roberts next asked:
Supreme Court of the United States Chief Justice John Roberts
John G. Roberts, Jr.
Mr. Martinez, if I could focus just for a minute on the language of the cause of action here, 1983.
It gives individuals a right against the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws. Now, under Miranda, you have a right not to have unwarned confessions admitted into evidence.
You wouldn’t have that right if it weren’t for the Constitution.
So why isn’t that right one secured by the Constitution?
Counsel Martinez responded, “Man, a rule to protect a constitutional right isn’t a constitutional right itself. Nowhere else does this occur, that some stupid-ass procedural rule that protects a constitutional right, all of a sudden becomes a constitutional right in and of itself.”
Justice Kagan was the next to chime in. She could not wrap her head around the argument that Miranda is there to ensure the 5th amendment rights are preserved, and that if a Miranda warning isn’t given, that somehow counsel argues that doesn’t necessarily mean his 5th amendment rights were violated.
Associate Justice Elena Kagan
Counsel Martinez suggested that just because Miranda wasn’t given, could it not be true that cops were having a discussion with him, and he admitted to what he had done in a moment of guilt?
That maybe he wanted to confess, even if he knew he didn’t have to answer their questions?
There’s no reason to assume his confession was coerced at all, without evidence of such. Therefore, his right not to self-incriminate doesn’t have to have been violated.
Justice Sotomayor asked:
Can you tell me why we’re here?
Simple question, but complex reason. She’s asking that Vega not Mirandizing him may have violated his Miranda rights, but it was the prosecutor and courts who chose to admit that confession who royally fucked Tekoh in the ass. So why sue Vega?
Martinez was like, “Fucking Vega lied to the prosecutor and the courts about this bullshit confession he obtained. That’s why we’re going after him. The prosecutor and judge were going on bad info from Vega!”
Next up is Vivek Suri. He’s representing the federal government under Biden, as an amicus, in support of Vega.
His opener was a short banger.
Vivek Suri
Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court: Miranda recognized a constitutional right, but it’s a trial right concerning the exclusion of evidence at a criminal trial.
It isn’t a substantive right to receive the Miranda warnings themselves. A police officer who fails to provide the Miranda warnings accordingly doesn’t himself violate the constitutional right, and he also isn’t legally responsible for any violation that might occur later at the trial.
He’s basically saying, even if the cop fucked up and didn’t mirandize, the prosecutor brought the evidence in, and the judge allowed it. So why is Vega the asshole here?
Justice Thomas jumped in first again, and simply asked, what if the officer lies about what happened during the interrogation?
Vivek is largely arguing 1983 claims are about things that happen outside of trial. But things that happen during the trial, are generally not 1983 claims, such as ineffective counsel, or other poor actions by the judge and prosecutor.
Vivek essentially argues that the remedy for a Miranda claim, is just to throw out the testimony that was given before a baddie was mirandized. It’s not to make it rain cash on the poor sucker.
Last up is Paul Hoffman, representing Mr. Tekoh, AKA Goldfinger.
He’s arguing that Officer Vega’s account is bullshit. Tekoh did not just willingly give up this info. Vega threatened him with deportation and shit, until he confessed.
Vega then lied and suggested that Tekoh, out of the blue, was just like, “Hey man, I’m sorry, I fingered her without her consent. I’m an asshole. Totally my bad.” As if somehow, he didn’t even feel he needed to Mirandize him yet, but then Tekoh just dropped the dime on himself straight away.
Paul Hoffman
Problem for Hoffman, none of the fucking trials actually found, based on the evidence, that Vega did coerce Tekoh. It’s Tekoh’s story, but that’s it.
If Tekoh just blurted out his guilt willy nilly, Vega really didn’t do anything wrong. But Hoffman needs to prove that Vega threatened him with deportation and such, and he just doesn’t have any court findings or testimony to back that shit up.
Think of it like three steps. The use of an unMirandized statement is a violating of the fifth amendment. 1983 let’s you sue for damages if your rights are violated. If Vega lied and said the confession wasn’t coerced when it was in fact coerced, and that confession was admitted into evidence, than Tekoh’s constitutional rights were violated by Vega, and Vega should be rewarded with some 1983 dollars.
If Vega is telling the truth, and Tekoh just sang like a canary because he was feeling guilty, as Vega suggested at trial, then Vega didn’t coerce that confession, he’s just reporting what he heard Tekoh say.
Since Tekoh was exonerated, you might wonder what harm he is claiming. The confession didn’t help the government convict Tekoh. But Tekoh’s claiming that the fact his confession was used as evidence against him, led to him having to endure a trial at all, and therefore he was harmed.
Hoffman is arguing that Tekoh’s life and reputation were harmed by all this, and none of it would have happened, had Vega Mirandized him, instead of interrogating him. And that’s what 1983 is there for—violations just like this.
The opinion, written by Justice Alito, and joined by the other 5 Republican appointees, decided it didn’t give a fuck whether Vega lied or not. That Miranda is not a constitutional right, it is a prophylactic rule that merely protects a constitutional right. The remedy for a Miranda violation is the evidence not being allowed into trial. It isn’t 1983 dolla dolla bills y’all.
Essentially, he’s saying that because it’s possible Tekoh just blurted out his confession, and Vega was in earshot of it, which would be admissible in court, that this proves that not mirandizing someone isn’t always a fifth amendment violation.
He wrote:
A violation of Miranda does not necessarily constitute a violation of the Constitution, and therefore such a violation does not constitute “the deprivation of a right secured by the Constitution” which is necessary to secure a 42 U. S. C. §1983 claim.
So Tekoh can go fuck himself, instead of his patients—he’s lucky he was acquitted.
Justice Kagan wrote the dissent. I’ll summarize it this way. “If Miranda is required to protect someone’s 5th amendment rights, and a Miranda warning isn’t given, someone’s fifth amendment rights were fucking violated. Alito, respectfully, you’re a crusty old senile fuck, and you should retire.”
One of Trump’s most contentious policy issues has been tariffs. His argument is that the United States has trade deficits with many other nations, and that this is inherently problematic.
Here’s the issue: it’s not a problem. It never has been.
Think about this: you have a trade deficit with your grocery store. You probably buy from them all the time, but they don’t buy anything from you. Is that a problem? Of course not.
The United States is the largest economy in the world. We have trade deficits with other nations because we have more money to buy their goods than they have to buy ours. Additionally, their goods are often cheaper, while ours are relatively expensive. This is basic capitalism—money flows to those producing the best products at the best prices.
As a result, citizens of other countries—who generally have less disposable income than Americans—are unlikely to purchase U.S. goods even if they wanted to.
President Donald Trump
But let’s discuss problem-solving more broadly.
Imagine I gave you a math problem: 2+2. If you’re unfamiliar with math, you might think the problem is 2-2. If you don’t understand the addition symbol, you’ll never get the right answer. Accurately identifying the problem is essential for finding effective solutions—this is where Trump fails spectacularly.
Once we understand that the reason we don’t export more is that U.S. goods are too expensive compared to those from other countries—and recognize that Trump’s policies haven’t addressed this—it becomes clear that he isn’t solving the problem. In fact, he is likely making it worse, which is why so many economists are predicting a recession.
As president, Trump can influence U.S. policy but has limited power over other nations, aside from imposing tariffs.
This reflects a larger issue: a lack of self-awareness on a national scale. Trump and his supporters fail to consider that the problem may lie within the United States itself. They assume that American manufacturing is flawless and that other countries are taking advantage of us. This perspective is fundamentally flawed.
Global markets are capitalism at the highest level. Other countries are competing and winning because the U.S. is repeating past mistakes—allowing prices to rise due to poor policies, thereby pricing ourselves out of the market. People aren’t willing to pay Mercedes-Benz prices for Volkswagen-quality goods.
If Trump understood that the real issue is the cost of American goods, he would focus on reducing those costs. He could:
Tighten regulations on labor unions to prevent the artificial inflation of labor costs.
Collaborate with Congress to lower the U.S. corporate tax rate, which remains similar to other developed countries. Or better yet, eliminate it altogether. If we want to compete, let’s compete!
Address the restrictive regulatory environment by working with Congress to repeal unnecessary statutes that increase production costs.
Instruct his administration to repeal regulations that add cost without providing clear value.
U.S. Congress
These measures could significantly reduce the cost of U.S. goods. It’s worth noting that generally, no company wants to manufacture outside their home country. The language barriers, compliance costs, shipping challenges, etc., are all very problematic and costly. So improving the above points at home are what would encourage more investment in U.S. production—not just raising the cost of foreign goods.
Trump’s approach is to increase the cost of imported goods to make them comparable in price to U.S. products, under the assumption that this will boost domestic spending and investment. It won’t. Americans generally prefer U.S. goods but often can’t afford them. Raising the cost of alternatives won’t change that.
Companies won’t invest in the U.S. until we fix the issues that make it expensive to do business here, either.
In my experience working for an American professional tool company, we offered both domestically produced and imported tools. The U.S.-made sets often cost around $500+, while comparable sets from Taiwan were priced between $150 and $200. Customers wanted the American-made sets, but most couldn’t afford them and bought the imported ones. If the cheaper options disappear, customers simply won’t buy anything.
It’s also important to note that imported goods support the U.S. economy because they are sold by American vendors. If affordable imports disappear, stores like Walmart will struggle to stock affordable products, leaving low-income families with fewer options.
The global economy naturally directs production to those who can make the best products at the lowest prices. This isn’t about tariffs—it’s about culture, resources, and work ethic.
Work ethic plays a role, as many young Americans are increasingly reluctant to take on labor-intensive, low-paying jobs. We’ve instilled the belief that everyone must go to college, and that low-skilled jobs are beneath them. As a result, fewer people are willing to work in factories.
Trump’s failure to address these fundamental issues has left the economy struggling. Economists are predicting a recession, inflation remains high, and Trump’s focus on tariffs is not addressing the root causes. Meanwhile, his conflicts with the courts and disregard for the Constitution are eroding support among independent voters.
The hope is that as more Americans, including his supporters, recognize the flaws in his approach, Trump will feel compelled to change course. His ego needs to be fed, and as more Americans turn against him, it’s the surest way to get him to embrace change in himself. For the sake of the country, I certainly hope we have a serious culture shift, soon.
When I think Trump is corrupt or willfully doing the wrong thing, I’m pretty harsh in my criticisms of him on “the socials.”
If he’s answering honestly here in this PBS video, then this is not so much me bashing him, as it is me being concerned about him being our president.
To give context, he is asked about the Supreme Court ordering him to effectuate the return of suspected gang member, and known illegal immigrant Kilmar Garcia (Read about this story here, for the unfamiliar), and he replies by saying that the people elected him to deport these folks, and the courts are holding him back from doing it.
So then she asks, “Don’t you need to uphold the Constitution of the United States, as president?”
He responds, “I don’t know. I have to respond by saying again, I have brilliant lawyers that work for me. And they are going to, obviously follow what the Supreme Court said. What you said, is not what I heard the Supreme Court said. They have a very different interpretation.”
It should be concerning he doesn’t understand the constitution, and a court order, at such a basic level, when he’s encountered so many of them at this point.
Kilmar Arbrego Garcia
If you follow Trump and his legal issues, as covered by legal scholars and analysts alike, you’ll know he has a history of losing good lawyers.
A good podcast on this subject is called Serious Trouble, hosted by former federal prosecutor, Ken White. If you’re interested in learning law as it pertains to current issues, it’s really hard to think of a better podcast, and it’s largely apolitical.
It is often very critical of Trump, but don’t mistake this as being partisan. It’s quite possible to be a Republican ideologically, and still not like Trump, or to have apolitical reasons for disliking him.
I don’t think Ken White is a Republican, but the point is, he rarely delves into political opinions or questions, just legal analysis. So be sure to check your biases when listening, and just learn.
Former prosecutor Ken White
Anyway, on the issue of Trump losing good lawyers, an analogy would be the support of capitalism many give, and how it works.
If someone were a horrid employer, they’ll lose good employees, either because the employees won’t want to work for them, or the employer will ask them to do things that they know are wrong or immoral. The employee will, of course, refuse to do these directives, which then prompts the bad employer to fire them because they think the employee is being insubordinate, when the reality is the employer is the one out of line asking them to do those things in the first place.
This is precisely the scenario people describe when it comes to Trump and his lawyer troubles. His lawyers either fire Trump as a client, or he fires them, often after they refuse to do something they consider illegal, which could get them disbarred or worse. So Trump ends up with mediocre and ethically challenged lawyers as a result. Not to mention, he seems to have a penchant for hiring lawyers who are subjectively attractive females, for what I assume are not entirely because of their skills at lawyering.
Christina Bobb (Left), Lindsey Halligan (Center), Alina Habba (Right)
By all accounts, he’s been surrounded most of his life by employees or family members, who’ve all enabled him. It’s led him to believe he’s smarter than he is, because he doesn’t have anyone close to him to tell him he’s wrong or out of line growing up.
Penn Jillette talked about this on his podcast, Penn’s Sunday School. Penn was asked to do an interview for a book about Trump. Out of curiosity, he asked the writer, “What do his friends say about him?”
The writer responded that he hadn’t really been able to find any friends to interview. Just employees, and family members.
Penn Jillette
As a result of this sheltered and unchallenged life, it stands to reason he was turned into an entitled jerk who thinks he’s always right, and thinks anyone disagreeing with him is his enemy.
History is littered with stories like this of boy kings, for instance, who would have servants killed for just making eye contact with them.
As much as I find Trump offputting and reprehensible, I do find it sad that this is how he was brought up and how he turned out.
Maybe he was born a sociopath and was always going to be the basic person he is. But maybe he was raised so poorly, that it made him the bad person he is, and things could have been so much better for him with a better upbringing.
Either way, the idea that he doesn’t understand the Constitution in such a simple sense, is very concerning, when it’s his job to uphold it. With some of his other off-the-wall ideas, like changing the name of the Gulf of Mexico, reopening Alcatraz, or his tumultuous application of tariffs, I think it’s fair to ponder the idea that he’s starting to suffer dementia, like Biden and Reagan before him.
He’s Biden’s age—after all—and older than Reagan was during his presidency, so it’s not a crazy notion.
Either way, I think for the sake of our nation, it’s time for Republicans to move on from Trump as soon as possible before more bad things happen, either through corruption, arrogance, ignorance, or senility.
Ever heard of intergovernmental immunity? I sure as hell hadn’t.
During the formation of the United States, state’s rights were a big fucking deal to the founding members. They were wary to create some “all-powerful” federal government—that ish would be too much like the motherfuckers they just shot and killed in order to form our new nation.
That said, they also understood that certain things needed to be controlled by the federal government over the states.
For instance, the Bill of Rights was initially thought of as a limit only on the federal government, but eventually SCOTUS heard Gitlow v. New York (1925).
Some socialist asshole named Gitlow was arrested in New York for passing out commie propaganda suggesting people should overthrow the government. He was arrested under a New York law banning such speech.
SCOTUS, after hearing the case, ruled in favor of Gitlow—the Constitution’s enumerated rights are not rights at all, if the states can violate the fuck out of them. So after that, case law mandated that the rights in the constitution applied to all levels of government, not just federal.
In that decision, SCOTUS was addressing the right to free speech via the first amendment, but it laid the precedent that the states have to abide by the Constitution’s restraints. All the states agreed to this shit—they can’t just back out of it later.
But this isn’t the only time the federal government exerts power of the states. There’s also intergovernmental immunity—which is much older.
Back in 1819, SCOTUS heard McCulloch v. Maryland. McCullough worked for a federal bank. Maryland wanted to tax said bank. McCullough told them to fuck off and die. The case made it to SCOTUS, and legendary chief Justice John Marshall opined that the states cannot tax or regulate property of the federal government, and voila! Intergovernmental immunity was born.
Chief Justice John Marshall
The federal government can allow the states to tax or regulate them, in certain areas, but only if the federal government says it’s cool. We’ll get to that in a minute.
This case revolves around intergovernmental immunity, because the state of Washington has this now-closed nuclear power plant called the Hanford Site. It was built in 1943 as part of the Manhattan Project. It was the first plutonium reactor in the fucking world—’Murica, bitches! Some of the plutonium produced at that site was the fuel used in the Nagasaki bomb.
Back in 1989, they decided that this plant was old, tired, outdated, and ready to be put out to pasture. So since that shit is no longer operational, someone has the duty to erase that mother fucker off the face of the Earth, and all it’s radioactive essence along with it.
That somebody is the federal government, via the U.S. Department of Energy.
The Hanford Site
Now let’s talk about Worker’s Compensation. You know, that government “insurance” program by which, if you’re hurt in the workplace, the government pays out cash money to you?
Well, there isn’t a federal worker’s comp program—that’s usually handled by the states. So, in 1936, the federal government passed 40 U.S.C. § 3172.
Remember when I said the federal government could give the states some power over them if they wanted? This statute gave the states the power to narrowly regulate federal workers on federal property which exists in that state via that state’s worker’s comp program.
Too many times, because of intergovernmental immunity, federal workers were forced to sue the federal government to get paid for on-the-job injuries, so congress passed this law to help.
This saved requiring the lazy fucks in the federal government to pass their own version of such a program.
We know worker’s comp is about injuries that occur at work, such as falling off a ladder and breaking a fucking leg, or something. That’s pretty easy to identify as a workplace hazard and incident.
What’s not so fucking easy, is attributing diseases like cancer, which may be caused by radiation leakage from a defunct nuclear power plant, to a workplace like the Hanford Site. It’s pretty much impossible to prove that someone’s cancer is not just a random cancer they contracted, even if odds suggest it probably is related to handling nuclear waste.
But worker’s comp requires that the claimant can prove the fucking harm was caused by the workplace. So this is a pain in the ass for these people trying to clean up this nuclear site.
As you can imagine, they’re basically real-life Homer Simpsons, working in a pretty hazardous environment. When accidents happen, people will likely get sick and die. Hell, some of the protections they use, may even be insufficient, leading to problems they thought they were protected from.
At the Hanford Site, the federal government was paying claims just fine, until 2018, when Washington changed the rules with H.B. 1723, making it easier for workers to claim workplace injuries there.
Generally, if safety protocols are meticulously followed, barring some fucking equipment failure, these workers should be adequately protected. But Washington noted that protocols often weren’t followed, which then might lead to increased risk.
If workers put their own dumb asses at risk by avoiding safety protocols, it’s hard to blame the workplace for such illnesses. They’re a victim of their own defective idiotic brain—such claims usually aren’t covered.
But Washington was like, “you government assholes aren’t doing a good job monitoring these safety protocols, so we don’t really know if these fuckwits are to blame for their own issues. It could be you lazy fucks, instead.”
So basically, Washington’s rule change went from requiring proof all safety protocols were followed and they got sick anyway, to “if they got sick from a disease that could be caused by exposure, we’ll assume they’re owed compensation. The monitoring of safety protocols is pretty fucking weak at times, and we can’t really determine who’s at fault.”
Even more odd, the law specifically only modified that for the Hartford Site workers. That’s odd, because other people in the state, working for the federal government, the state, or private companies, could be working with similar risks, and subject to the same harms, but for them, they don’t get that presumption of work-caused disease.
Between when SCOTUS agreed to hear this shit, and it was actually heard however, Washington amended the rule with S.B. 5890, which now covers anyone in the state working with radioactive shit.
So the Federal government was like, “Hold on a fucking minute. We were all Kool and the Gang with this shi before, but now it’s getting expensive AF.
It might seem like the federal government wouldn’t care if it covered non-federal workers, as they’re being paid by the state, and thus aren’t on the hook for these additionally-covered workers.
This is where it gets interesting.
Before the latest rule change, the federal government was suing because they felt the state was unfairly discriminating for federal workers. Now that they are applying the rules to everyone, it’s questionable if Washington mooted this case—they’re no longer discriminating in the way the federal government complained.
The federal government is skeptical the latest rule will be retroactive, which Washington says it would be. So the federal government is like, “You assholes didn’t moot shit. We’re still on the hook for these old motherfuckers, and we don’t believe you when you say you’ll apply it to non-federal workers retroactively.
So anyway, that’s the nuts and bolts of this case. Now, let’s check in on the oral arguments…
First up for Petitioners, the good ole USA, is Department of Justice Deputy Solicitor General, Malcolm Stewart.
He opened by pointing out that the changes they made to the law, have not been proven to be to the benefit of the United States, and as such, didn’t moot their fucking claim.
U.S. Deputy Solicitor General Malcolm Stewart
He points out that every other worker on the site, such as state or private workers, are under different rules, and as such, that’s pretty unfair to the United States.
Justice Kagan asked, “if they had passed this new law before you filed for certiori to have us hear it, would you still have filed?”
He agreed, it wouldn’t have been the same argument, but they’d still have filed to ask the court to vacate the lower court’s decision on this, which they lost. But, he also pointed out that he wanted the court to provide clarification on the scope of the 1936 federal law, 3172 mentioned above.
Justice Roberts seemed confused by the statute, and asked Stewart, if the facility were owned by the state, would these workers be covered by state worker’s compensation laws?
I think at the heart of the question Justice Roberts is asking, since the law Washington wrote about these federal workers only applied to them, could they also apply it to the workers if it were a state facility?
Counsel Stewart was like, “Sure, but they didn’t.” He points out that the HB1723 law only applies to Hanford Site workers, which all work for the federal government. So even if the state could apply those rules to other state facilities, the law as written doesn’t allow it. It specifically just calls out the Hanford site.
His beef is that the federal government is being discriminated against other workers doing similar work in Washington, and that’s some bullshit, in his professional opinion. They argued this point, a lot. I mean, a LOT.
Going back to the rule that the federal government has to agree to allow the states to tax or regulate them, which they do here, his argument is that they didn’t agree to be discriminated against. If the rules were the same for everyone else, they wouldn’t fucking be here. But the state, knowing that the federal government has some deep pockets, made rules specifically for the Hanford Site peeps, knowing the state or its business, wouldn’t have to pay it, only Big Daddy Fed would.
Next up is SCOTUS newbie, Tera Heintz.
She opened by arguing that while she thinks they win on the merits, it’s fucking irrelevant because it’s moot. They rescinded and replaced the law that was on the books when SCOTUS agreed to hear this shit, so if they still have a new problem, they need to submit a new case and go through the proper channels again.
Tera Heintz of Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP
We’ve seen this tactic before, in a New York State Rifle Association case, when states know they’re out of line, but refuse to budge until SCOTUS agrees to take the case, then all of a sudden they’re like, “Our bad, dawg. We’ll change it.”
While it’s possible some states just coincidentally see the light, and admit the errors of their ways, this seems skeezy at best.
She was like, “their complaint is asking you to invalidate a law on constitutional grounds which no longer even fucking exists. She added, even if they win, what victory can you give them? Nothing, I tell you. NOTHING! The relief they sought when they failed, has already been granted.”
This may seem like a fair argument, as the law was rescinded. But this tactic, is again kinda skeezy. Because the new law replacing it, is offensive to the other side in a slightly different way, and they fucking know it. They effectively admit the other side had a point, but instead of just fixing the error, they try to achieve it by another means, and hope that SCOTUS is so stupid as to let that shit fly.
She goes on to point out that claims filed under the old law, are what the other side is worried about, and those claims will be retroactively amended to the new law. But as the other side argued before, there’s no guarantee this is true, and the law is not written with language that suggests it must be applied retroactively. So they don’t trust this shit further than they can throw it.
Remember, that the new law is supposed to make it so that all workers, federal or not, working with retroactive materials, can now get this presumption that their cancers and shit were because of this exposure to hazardous materials.
Associate Justice Clarence Thomas
Justice Thomas wanted to know, “what if people who benefitted under the old law, want their case updated to the new one?” He’s basically asking, what if their condition changed, and they need more assistance. Maybe the new law doesn’t help them as the old one did, so they want assistance under the old law, where they got help.
Heintz argued that workers who were awarded assistance under the old law would simply refile under the new law if they need new assistance. For pending claims, the new law is retroactive and would be applied to them. Any closed claims under the old law, would need refiled under the new one.
It’s worth noting, they’re here in SCOTUS as an appeal of a Washington Supreme Court (SCOW) ruling. Once SCOTUS makes its decision, it will go back to SCOW.
So Justice Roberts is like, “You’re asking us to assume that SCOW will rule this law to be applied retroactively, right?”
She agreed, stating that that’s how they always come down on laws like this. No reason to think they’ll come down differently here.
But Justice Roberts was like, “You know, for us to moot a case, we need some certainty, and courts are kinda unpredictable.”
She surprisingly said she understood, acknowledging justice Roberts may have a point.
Chief Justice John Roberts
She pointed out though, that the opposition are being rather speculative. They don’t come to court today with any claim of harm or damages, nor do they seek any remedy for them.
They’re asking the court to prevent future damages they fear may occur. But we’re telling you they won’t, and we have good reason to argue as much.
Justice Kagan, being skeptical that she had overcome the high bar SCOTUS has for mooting the case (basically knowing how SCOW will rule), she asked, “Do you have any precedent where we mooted a case just based on previous similar ruling from a lower court, and thus assumptions about how they’d come down on a case we’re considering?”
She didn’t seem to have any cases to cite, but argued that the court could do it if they want.
Justice Gorsuch, jumping on Kagan’s question was like, “By what authority would we just vacate the lower court’s decision, if it’s not moot?”
Counsel Heintz again, surprisingly admitted she didn’t have an answer for that. Justice Gorsuch chuckled and said he didn’t either, and they moved on.
Justice Stephen “Crazy Hypothetical” Breyer, who’d apparently been working on this hypothetical for days, was like, “OK, the old law was about a geographical area, specifically, the Hanford site, and people who worked there, who just happened to be all federal workers.
The new law says it applies to any structure and its lands.
Now imagine, some people who work on the river cleaning out muskrat nests. (Yes, he really said this)
These muskrats pick up some of this radioactive waste, and transport it to their nests. The people cleaning those nests are now exposed to danger, but they’re not near any “structure and its land.”
So what about those workers? You say the new law is very specific, but I’m betting the law doesn’t say a fucking thing about muskrats and their nests. So, I say, it isn’t clear.
What do you say to that?”
She was like, “First of all, you need to stop hitting acid before you come into the courtroom. Secondly, you’d review their case solely on the text of the new law. “
But justice Breyer was like, “But imagine these people filed fourteen claims under the old law, and they won the first thirteen under the old law, but 14 isn’t decided yet. Now, the federal government wants their money back on the first 13, and they want the worker to lose on claim 14, even though the precedent was decided in the first 13 that they won. What say you?”
She was like, “Claim 14 is independent. The 13 previous have no effect on the pending 14th claim, which can only consider the new law’s text.”
Justice Alito then asked, “If this old law is so dead, why do you care if we invalidate it?”
Associate Justice Samuel Alito
Her response seemed to suggest that she was simply trying to save the justices some time. Not sure I buy that argument.
I think the concern for them is that if SCOTUS issues a broad ruling, it could fuck up their new law, too. But if they moot the case, then nothing changes for them.
Justice Alito then asked if the 1936 waiver law allows the state to single out a particular federal facility by name?
She agreed that it could, and that in fact, when the 1936 waiver was enacted, states were already doing that. So this is why she thinks the oppositions argument is invalid.
It’s also worth noting, that this seems to only apply to workers contracted by the federal government. Federal workers are covered by the Federal Employee Compensation Act (FECA). She wants to be able to discriminate against these workers who are specifically, not employees of the federal government, just simply paid and contracted by them.
You might have thought that Justice Stephen “Crazy Hypotheticals” Breyer had worked so hard on his muskrat hypo, that he was exhausted. But he was not.
Associate Justice Stephen Breyer
He then jumped in with this:
I mean, that is exactly the question that is bothering me.
I mean, one day in the legislature a group of federal employees from Hanford show up and they say: You know, it’s tough being a federal employee.
People in the state make much more money.
We have more dangerous jobs.
And the state laws generally are pretty fair to their workers, but try working for the federal government.
This is supposed to strike a chord of agreement. So they say: Now you can’t do much for us because you’re a state legislature, but I’ll tell you one thing you can do.
What you could do for you is you give us, if we’re hurt, and define hurt very broadly, please, so that if we’re even hurt a little bit, we get millions. Now we’ve got to watch that number but, really, it’s high.
And you know the wonderful thing? If you make private employers pay this in the State of Washington, they are voters, so you have to worry about them. And if the government pays for it in the state, well, that’s a problem, you’re going to have to raise taxes.
But do you know who’s paying for this one? The feds.
The feds will pay, the taxpayers in the other states.
So let’s go and really hit the ceiling and we’ll really pay a lot of money and we won’t have to pay for it. Okay.
I know projects like that.
I won’t say which they are, but there we are. Now, to me, did I think Congress intended that? Hmm.
It’s going to take quite a lot of doing before I think they wanted that result.
Now that’s that’s where I am.
So what do you think?
Counsel Heintz responded by pointing out that if congress doesn’t like it, they can always amend the waiver—that’s their right. It’s a broad check against the abuses Justice Breyer outlined in his hypothetical.
Justice Kagan, not interested in hypotheticals like Breyer, glommed on to his line of questioning, though. She asked:
Ms. Heintz, I think the question was really a question of, like, you know, maybe you’re right about the text, but why would Congress have done that? I mean, we can’t really believe that that’s what Congress meant to do. And if you take all the other statutes which you gave us and you said, look, the text is different, and you’re right, the text is different. But, at the same time, we know that Congress has a kind of modus operandi with respect to this, and it basically always says whatever you do elsewhere you can do for facilities like Hanford. It doesn’t say, you know, whatever you could dream of doing elsewhere but actually wouldn’t you could do to federal facilities. And I think that that’s what Justice Breyer is asking.
Like, what sensible Congress would have written the statute the way you say it ought to be read?
Associate Justice Elena Kagan
Counsel Heintz was like, “The federal contractors participated in the political process when the waiver was written. So congress was aware of their concerns and where the shit might go when they wrote the waiver.
Sure, maybe congress didn’t expect us to go THIS far, but they already knew there were other rules like this, that singled out specific facilities.
She also points out that the Hanford site is the riskiest environment in the country to work in. So they surely also knew that special rules might be needed for this fucking place.
Justice Barrett question if the 1936 waiver’s language seemed to be aimed at regulatory agencies, not the state legislature.
Meaning, does the waiver apply to the state passing laws, or only to the regulatory agencies in the state passing regulations? If it’s the latter, then that assumes there’s already a law on the books creating an agency and giving them the power to regulate this.
She seemed to be hinting at the idea that the waiver was granted based on statutes that already existed, and the waiver was responding to them. So if there were new laws passed, would that potentially invalidate the waiver, and require a new waiver to be passed before they could do this?
They agreed, that sounds crazy. But Justice Barrett was essentially arguing that the waiver is directed towards the regulatory agency, not the legislature. But it’s the legislature who enacted the new statute.
Counsel Heintz argued that the waiver did not specifically distinguish between laws and regulations, and as such, the waiver should apply to the new law.
In a unanimous opinion, authored by Justice Breyer, counsel Wentz was unimpressive in her arguments, and the state law is invalidated. When the federal government waived immunity, it certainly didn’t anticipate that the states would bend them over and fuck them in the ass in ways it wouldn’t dream of doing, if the state or local businesses were paying for it.
Hear oral arguments or read about the case here at Oyez or at SCOTUSBlog.
“Right to try” laws have become very contentious in recent years. Because we here at Logical Libertarian pride ourselves on being logical, as you can imagine, our position is that there are two opposing sides of the debate, and the truth is probably somewhere between these ideologies.
Both sides have very valid points, and should be considered. Sadly, what doesn’t happen, is both sides acknowledging the validity of the opposition’s argument, which then might lead to an acceptable solution they both agree is best.
So let’s explore…
First, in one corner, we have the proponents. These are largely libertarian-minded folks like myself. They rightly point out that the FDA approval process for new treatments or medicines is painfully slow.
They’re correct of course, but this is for good reason. When it comes to someone’s life, drugs and treatments shouldn’t be approved willy-nilly. If someone dies because a drug or treatment was harmful, we can’t exactly undo that.
But there’s another problem, even if the drug or treatment is benign.
Where these proponents are correct, are situations where someone has a treatment resistant issue, or an issue with no approved treatment, they’re potentially suffering from a terminal illness, and they’re open to try anything at this point to save their life. In this scenario, it seems to make sense to allow them to try unapproved treatments, because there’s simply no better option available.
I’m very sympathetic to this argument.
In the other corner, we have scientists. They argue that by allowing people to use these unapproved treatments, we’re opening the door to charlatans and snake oil salesmen, scamming desperately ill folks who are grasping at straws.
They’re 100% right that this does happen, and will happen at a higher level, if we allow “right to try” laws to pass unilaterally.
The FDA approval process is slow for a reason. There are multiple steps to show efficacy in non-humans, safety in humans, then eventually controlled studies with large sample sizes in humans. After that, it takes years to potentially understand the long term effects of these treatments.
Until scientists understand the mechanisms, outcomes, drawbacks, side effects, etc., giving doctors the green light to try these things, could do much more harm than good.
In a third corner, is me. A non-doctor, philosophical libertarian, who thinks there might be some middle ground which can be found.
My first argument is that unapproved treatments can be placed into four buckets:
Treatments with no studies/data supporting or rejecting them
Treatments with studies/data supporting them, but not enough to reach FDA approval yet
Treatments with conflicting studies supporting and rejecting them
Treatments with studies/data rejecting them
With these buckets, “right to try” laws could have different rules for each, that allay the fears of scientists, while ensuring the rights of people to try potentially promising treatments are also preserved.
Just to disclose my own bias, I think there should be a constitutional amendment forbidding government to get in between a patient and their licensed physician. When I say licensed physician, I’m referring to someone who went to medical school and has a license to practice medicine. Not homeopaths, naturopaths, chiropractors, or others who don’t have a license to practice medicine, but attempt to pass themselves off as “doctors.” I find such behavior reprehensible, immoral, and arguably criminal. They’re con artists if they actually know what they’re doing, and they’re ignoramuses if they don’t.
I know chiropractors are contentious, and some are certainly better than others. But unless they went to medical school and attained their doctorate, which they didn’t, calling themselves doctors is misleading.
That said, some are at least honest that what they do, provide some temporary relief. But others claim they can cure diseases and such, which are the original claims of chiropractic. That has been thoroughly debunked, and is very irresponsible for any chiropractor to claim.
I hold this idea for an amendment, partly to preserve a woman’s right to have an abortion, especially if her health is at elevated risk. But more generally, just because I think government shouldn’t be passing laws preventing a doctor from performing a treatment that they, and the patient, agree is best for them.
That said, I think government’s most important job, is to protect us from those who would do us harm, including quacks recommending procedures that aren’t backed by an ounce of science (still thinking about Steve Jobs and his choice to treat his cancer with homeopathy).
So I’d reconcile these conflicts of protecting doctor-patient interactions versus protecting patients from malicious practitioners by outlining how I feel about the four buckets above. But understand that first and foremost, my argument to protecting doctor-patient interactions is only about actual medical doctors.
Other so-called health gurus should receive no such protections, and frankly, in my opinion, should mostly be tarred and feathered.
Bucket #1: Treatments with no studies/data supporting or rejecting them
If there are no studies/data supporting them, I’m curious why any doctor would recommend it. But I can imagine a scenario where a doctor has some reason to believe a particular treatment could work, despite no data on it, for or against. That seems to be significantly less likely than charlatans, though.
In this scenario, if a doctor is licensed, that doctor should be required to disclose quite clearly, that there is zero science supporting the idea. But, that the doctor suspects it might be helpful, explain their reasons why, and if the person is willing to take an absolute shot in the dark, then they may proceed.
Bucket #2: Treatments with studies/data supporting them, but not enough to reach FDA approval yet
This is the bucket that I think most people are envisioning when they think of “right to try laws.”
These would be medicines or treatments making their way through the FDA approval process, or being done in other countries with some success, but just aren’t approved here in the United States yet.
Again, let’s assume the position of a well-intentioned physician. They might see the data, and think there’s reason for hope with these. If there’s no approved option for this patient, and the patient has weighed the costs, risks, etc., then by all means, allow them to proceed.
Again, I think it must include full disclosure that it isn’t an approved treatment, and it should be viewed as something to try, only if there aren’t more effective approved treatments, which I think most doctors would choose anyway.
What could get tricky, is if there as an approved treatment that has a low efficacy rate, but there’s this new unapproved treatment that seems to show a much higher efficacy rate, what would a doctor recommend and a patient choose.
We hate to roll the dice on someone’s life, but it’s their life. I think again, as long as they’re well-informed, it should be their choice.
I don’t see an avenue for many charlatans on this path, as they tend to peddle in things which show no efficacy—if there were efficacy, it would be promoted by actual doctors.
Bucket #3: Treatments with conflicting studies supporting and rejecting them
This bucket is admittedly quite challenging. But in the end, since there are some studies showing efficacy, it has some level of hope or promise.
I’d again, make sure that the patient is made fully made aware of the conflicted status, a basic understanding of why it might work, and why it might not, the risks and side effects observed, etc.
From there, the patient can make an informed decision, and move forward.
Bucket #4: Treatments with studies/data rejecting them
For me, this one is pretty easy. It’s not like we don’t have data on these treatments—we do. They have been tested and failed every time.
Of course, any good scientist doesn’t deal in absolutes. Just because there’s no data supporting such treatments doesn’t mean they don’t work. It just means we have no reason to believe it does.
I don’t think any reputable physician should be prescribing such a treatment, and they should be excluded from “right to try” until there is some data to suggest they are safe and effective.
A doctor should inform the patient that such treatments have never been shown to be helpful, and that the doctor, in good conscious, wouldn’t recommend it, lest they be charged with malpractice.
As you may have noticed, in each scenario, I focus on informing the patient thoroughly. This is how I propose the government protect the patient, without standing in the way of preventing a potentially life-saving treatment.
I think these buckets are important, because when many talk about “Right to try” laws, they tend to not differentiate between a treatment which is showing efficacy, versus one that has been thoroughly debunked—those two things should be treated quite differently.
In the United States, we treat our military with a certain amount of reverence and care.
I assume most people know, that if you’re enlisted in the reserves or National Guard, which are temporary military roles where you serve a handful of weeks a year, and one weekend a month, that your employer cannot discriminate against you in some way, for doing this, either before you were employed with them, or during so.
Meaning, if you were enlisted first, and apply for a position, your employer can’t decline to hire you, because of your military status.
If you were employed first, and then opt to join the reserves after, same principle. You’re company cannot fire you, because they know you’ll now be missing time, that you otherwise wouldn’t, playing with guns, tanks, airplanes, and shit.
Another facet of this law however, is if you happen to get called to go kill some fucking terrorists, or other random enemies of the United States, your employer must have a job for you, when you come back.
It’s not so much that they have to keep your job open—that’s unfair to just not have that work done at all, while you’re gone.
So, when a soldier returns home, if their employer can return them to that job, great. Otherwise, a job of similar work, and equal or better pay, will suffice as well. Basically, the soldier shouldn’t be harmed or underpaid in any way, because they were missing for a year or two, snuffing out some assholes on your behalf.
Now that you understand that, in walks a damn-fine American, Leroy Torres, who joined the Army Reserves in 1989, became a Texas state trooper in 1998, then in 2007, got sent to Iraq to fuck some shit up.
However, while in Iraq, what got fucked up, were his lungs. So in 2008, he was honorably discharged for medical reasons.
Our military has a long history of doing whatever it takes to get shit done, sometimes throwing caution to the wind. A less than glorious part of this in Iraq, was getting rid of chemical waste and other dangerous things which they felt needed to be destroyed.
Did the Army create special hazmat disposal sites, with fancy equipment and shit to protect people getting rid of it?
Well…
Clip of the federal government responding to soldiers asking for special hazmat disposal equipment in Iraq
Instead, they dug some big fucking holes, tossed the shit in, and like any real man would do, lit that shit on fire—it’s our love language.
But as you can imagine, the fumes did some serious, and irreparable harm to these fine men and women, engaging in extreme s’more manufacturing.
Let’s be clear about what he endured. A shitload of ER visits, which the Veterans Administration tried to deny paying for, attempts to deal with his condition with unproven alternative therapies, which us pro-science people consider especially heinous, as it’s often charlatans bilking people in need, with therapies that have no evidence supporting them. Then, most sadly, he made a choice to deal with it in the ultimate way—committing an act of suicide, which was thankfully unsuccessful.
Iraq Burn Pits
Seriously, any soldiers who may stumble upon this, know you are loved, respected, and cared about. Please don’t ever consider ending your own life.
Seek help—there is so much available to you, both professionally, and from family and friends. Never be afraid to tell people how you’re feeling. No one will judge you negatively for it.
I have many veteran friends, and I’d be honored if they came to me to talk about their struggles—certainly not bothered in any way. I promise I’m not unique in this.
The people around you, that you think would be better off if you were gone, absolutely do NOT think they’d be better off if you were gone. They love you and care about you, and would miss you immeasurably if you were.
We all have our pride, but never let pride get in the way of asking for help. There are people out there who are fucking great at helping you deal with these things. Let them do their job, and you fight the most important fight of all—being around for your loved ones.
Well, his health issues really tested the limits of USERRA. He could no longer carry out the duties of working for the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) as a Texas State Trooper. The only job they had for him, was a low-level temp job, which he wasn’t interested in, as it felt pretty demeaning and unfair to him.
Leroy Torres
So Torres argued that he was effectively being discriminated against because of his military service and ensuing physical injury, which USERRA prohibits.
Torres would go on to become quite the champion of his fellow burn pit victims, and eventually help to create the PACT Act, which aimed to make sure other burn pit victims didn’t have the VA issues Torres did. It was eventually signed into law by President Biden.
I don’t want to deviate too much from the case, just know that the issues arose from the VA not acknowledging that the illnesses these soldiers faced, were because of the burn pits. As such, they denied covering them. It was an especially heinous act from whomever was running the VA at the time.
So, is this why were at SCOTUS?
Well, no.
I don’t know if we’ve really talked in detail about this, so let’s cover it now. I know we’ve covered that SCOTUS is almost always an appellate court —as opposed to original jurisdiction.
The way appeals work, and I’m simplifying, is you have your initial day in court. Along the way, you think the judge or the opposition, are unfairly harming you and your case. So you (via your lawyer) yell…
I know on TV, it just looks like a baller thing to do. But it also is a legal distinction that you’re putting on the record.
Imagine you lose the objection, and the judge overrules it, then you end up losing. If you believe the objection was valid, and it being overruled was the reason you lost the case, you can appeal that objection.
What people tend to think, is if you lose a case, you go to an appellate court, and they hear the whole fucking case again. Well, they don’t.
If you’ve listened to any of these oral arguments, think back on them, and you’ll see what I mean.
All the appellate court does, is hear the arguments about your objection, decide if it was wrongly overruled (or vice versa, if the opposition objected and it was sustained).
If they agree with you, they basically correct the overruling, send that shit back to the lower court to re-review, potentially rehear the case, and then redecide based on the new standard they set.
So in this case, the issue at hand for SCOTUS to decide is whether USERRA is allowed to step all over Texas and its state sovereignty, and allow Torres to sue Texas.
Texas however, argues that the federal government, via USERRA, has no fucking right to tell Texas Super Troopers to take better care of Torres.
If Torres wins, then Texas cannot make the argument that it’s their sovereign right to employ Torres how they want. Got it?
On to the arguments.
First up, counsel Andrew Tutt, in his first time arguing before SCOTUS, representing Mr. Torres
He opened by pointing to the constitution’s language on the federal government’s power to have a military, and defend the nation with it. Then, he argued, only a fucking idiot would think that the states would have a right to interfere or reject that power.
As such, USERRA, plays a pivotal role, in the federal government’s ability to build a fucking military. Who the fuck would join the reserves if the federal government didn’t have the power to make and enforce laws like USERRA?
So it follows that DPS are fucking idiots.
He was stumbling over his words a good bit, at least enough for me to remark on it, but hey, it is his first time here. I’ll cut him some slack.
Andrew Tutt
At issue is whether the federal government can pass a law allowing private citizens to sue a state.
Justices Roberts started by asking about previous cases Allen and Katz.
We’ll talk about Allen first, which is from 2019 case Allen v. Cooper. In that case, a photographer had taken photos of Blackbeard’s Treasure, which were taken in North Carolina. NC liked the photos so much, they put them on their own website, without even asking Allen permission to do so.
He sued the state for copyright infringement. But NC showed him, they passed “Blackbeard’s Law” which basically said they couldn’t be sued for using works which the federal government had copyrighted. Cheeky naming the law after a fucking thief, which they then used to steal someone else’s work.
It was eventually repealed in 2023.
SCOTUS agreed in that case, that the state had a right to pass such a law, and that law trumped federal law protecting copyright holders. Therefore, Allen was shit outta luck, getting NC to pay him for their use of his photos. In so doing, SCOTUS invalidated the federal law called the Copyright Remedy Clarification Act (CRCA).
This matters for our case today, because it basically says that the states can tell the federal government to go fuck itself, under certain conditions.
Conversely, Katz is a 2005 case called Central Virginia Community College v. Katz. This dude named Katz was owed some money from several state-run colleges, through bankruptcy. Virginia tried to argue state sovereign immunity meant they couldn’t be sued. But the SCOTUS at that time said the federal bankruptcy laws trump state sovereign immunity, and they have to pay.
Supreme Court of the United States Chief Justice John Roberts
So you see the conflict here. Allen accepted the states could pass a law preventing themselves from being sued, but Katz said states couldn’t just not pay someone they owed, because federal bankruptcy laws trumped any state law saying it didn’t have to pay.
Torres, in his briefs, cites Katz to support his case. But Justice Roberts’ question was asking, if Allen seems to be so contradictory to Katz, doesn’t it stand that Katz was narrowly decided on just bankruptcy grands, and not trumping state sovereign immunity altogether?
Justices Barrett and Kagan also seemed very curious about this point.
Counsel Tutt seemed to suggest that these two don’t conflict with each other, because one is about canceling state sovereignty altogether, whereas the other is merely about a waiver under certain circumstances.
Justice Barrett suggested that the difference seemed to be that bankruptcy, and eminent domain powers, which override state sovereignty, are the result of court proceedings. Suggesting that you’d have to get some victory in court, before you can tell the state to go pound sand up their ass.
But in Torres’ case, he’s relying on some federal law invalidating a state’s sovereignty, as opposed to constitutional powers, or a court decision.
Justice Kagan, being confused by his rational, asked:
Complete the sentence for me. The war powers are different because what?
Associate Justice Elena Kagan
Counsel Tutt replied:
The war powers are different because they are conferred unconditionally and without qualification.
His argument going back to his opening statement, that the framers intended for the government to be able to form an army, or militia, in times of need. And that since there was no land that wasn’t part of a state, the war powers would have no men to choose from, if they didn’t pluck them from the states.
Justice Kagan asked about a similar situation where the federal government, to protect native American rights, passed the Indian Commerce Clause, which purported to tell the states, they had no authority over Indian tribal lands, and SCOTUS then told congress, they could suck a giant Indian dick.
Justice Kagan, kept hammering, saying that they seem to be asking the question that during the framing of the constitution, they would have had certain expectations about what state’s had as rights, and what they didn’t. She was having a hard time expecting that the states wanted to allow the federal government to force them to give a militia person a cushy job.
Counsel Tutt again pointed out that the constitution makes it very clear, that the federal government’s war powers are sacrosanct. Whereas the federal government’s rights to tell states they have no power over native Americans, isn’t covered in the constitution in any way, and was just a power-grab attempt by congress that the court rightfully struck down.
Justice Barrett agreed that the war powers were rather strong, from the federal government, and that the government could sue Texas over this, if it wanted to. But where does it give Torres himself this power to sue them?
Associate Justice Amy Coney Barrett
Counsel Tutt was like, “the federal government, when it passed USERRA, knew that the best way to protect those rights, was to give them to the people it was intending to protect, the power to sue on their own, so they wouldn’t rely on the federal government.
We all know, government workers are inefficient and lazy (except for you assholes in robes), so better to remove them from the equation.
He even cited that there had been thousands of examples where people did attempt to go through the department of labor, and those worthless fucks did nothing in all but nine cases.
Justice Alito then chimed in and pointed out that the federal interstate highway system was created under war powers, and forces states to build the interstates within their borders (with funding from the federal government).
So Alito asked, can someone sue their state for having a shitty interstate highway that damages their car?
Tutt seemed rather surprised by this question, but trying to think quickly on his feet, simply suggested that there may be a limit on the war powers, that the federal government imposes on itself, but that the states don’t get to limit it.
He pointed out that while congress used the war powers to justify the interstate highway system, that is just a connection they made, and certainly not what the framers had in mind when they created the war powers.
However, recruiting soldiers sure as fuck is. It’s pretty much the one thing that has to be part of the war powers.
He goes on to say that Texas seems to think that the constitution considered the war-making powers strong, but still wanted the states to retain power to rebuke those powers where it saw fit, and he thinks that’s just fucking nonsense. He argues that they instead, specifically gave up that authority in this context.
Justice Thomas sought to understand where there were instances of state sovereignty being waived for money damage suits?
Associate Justice Clarence Thomas
Counsel Tutt pointed out several instances where the federal government had sued states for monetary damages.
But then Justice Thomas was like, “I’m not too fucking concerned about the US government, I’m concerned about private people suing states.”
But counsel Tutt was like, “That shit matters, Justice Thomas. Because these assholes over h’yar, say that if this case had all the same facts, but were The United States v. Texas Department of Public Safety, they’d wouldn’t have fought it.
So we’re saying, that it shouldn’t matter who’s suing, what matters is the merits of the claim.
One thing that is often brought up in this case, is a “Plan of Convention” argument, versus abrogation.
Yeah, I had to look that shit up, too.
So, in order to protect states from just having law suits falling out of their ass like never-ending diarrhea, the states are indemnified from the people suing them, except where they specifically agree to be sued.
I know it sounds kinda fucked up that states have to agree to being sued. When would they ever consent to be sued? That sounds weird.
Well, they don’t mean, like, “OK, you can bring this suit against us.” They’re referring to a time where they accept that they’re not immune (or are sovereign) in certain instances, then down the road, one of those instances occurs.
“Plan of the convention” refers to the meetings the states had, when creating the constitution.
Constitutional Convention
So counsel Tutt’s argument is basically saying, that by the states ratifying the constitution, including the war powers clause, they consented, or waived the right to immunity, over any violation of the war powers clause at convention of states, when they created the constitution.
So his argument is, that there’s no need for the courts to cite precedent, laws, or anything else. This is a “Plan of Convention” waiver of state sovereignty.
It gets tricky for him, because other constitutional issues, like commerce, coining money, and a bunch of other shit, haven’t traditionally been considered to override state sovereign immunity, and the justices have repeatedly sought to understand why counsel Tutt thinks this is different.
His argument is that the war powers provision, is fundamental, to the whole of this nation, to protect itself from not being a nation anymore. Those other punk ass provisions, deal with how the nation should operate among the states. So since the states sort of compete with one another in our commerce system, they band together to defend the nation. That seems to be his distinction on that.
Abrogation, on the other hand, is the federal government, or SCOTUS telling the states, “Fuck you, you can be sued for this shit.” This derives from the 14th amendment, which forbade states to allow slavery, and required due process under the law, as well as other shit. So the federal government effectively took power away from the states after the constitution had been originally drafted.
14th Amendment to the United States Constitution
In simple terms, “Plan of convention” is voluntary, abrogation is imposed.
Next up, we have counsel Christopher Michel, representing the United States, as an amici for Torres. The United States is not directly involved in the suit, but they have enough of an interest, that they were allowed to participate in the hearing.
He came in hot, by saying, “You assholes have NEVER put a limitation on the constitution’s war-powers, and USERRA is vital to that effort. So you’ve got no business giving Texas the power to limit that shit now.”
Justice Neil “Golden Voice” Gorsuch asked, “what are the fucking limits of these constitutional waivers? Can anyone bring any fucking suit to any state over anything that seems tacitly related to the constitutional powers. This shit could get pretty ridiculous, no?”
He then referenced, going back to Alito’s point about the highway system, could someone sue the state for punitive damages because there was a pothole on the highway that damaged their car?
He was then like, “Why couldn’t congress just conscript people? That shit worked for a while. They didn’t have to make this USERRA statute. So why is USERRA connected to the constitution when there are other ways to ensure we have soldiers to fight wars.
Christopher Michel
Counsel Michel’s response didn’t really seem to answer the question specifically. He acknowledged, the pothole argument would be much tougher to defend, and likely wouldn’t stand up.
But he didn’t really draw much of a distinction. Also didn’t address conscription.
He seemingly answered the question he wanted Gorsuch to ask, and just made it clear, that he didn’t see a clear path to draft an Army without USERRA, and therefore, rejecting it as a violation of state sovereignty, against suits from individuals, violates the principles the war-power clause defined.
He then went on to point out to questions from Justice Kavanaugh, that one of the first things volunteers for the reserves and the National Guard ask about when considering joining, is “what about my civilian job?” It’s a major concern, and a huge factor in their choice to volunteer.
Last up: Counsel Judd E. Stone
He chimed in with a distinction mentioned earlier. That states didn’t sign away their fucking sovereignty to private citizens—it signed it over to the federal government. So if the United States wants to sue Texas over this shit, we would accept it. I know they’re here as an amici, but they didn’t see fit to file for Mr. Torres.
The states can’t just let every Tom, Dick, and Harry fucking sue us.
I think what’s also at issue here, is monetary damages. If Torres just wanted them to give him a job or something, the US might have filed for him. But he’s also demanding monetary damages, and I think that’s ultimately what Texas is pissed about, and why the United States isn’t the opposing party.
Judd Stone
Justice Roberts first asked about the other side’s argument regarding “Plan of Convention” waivers.
Counsel agreed, this is their strongest argument, however, he indicates that these waivers are about what the states gave away, and what they didn’t.
In other words, they expected the federal government to field an Army, and are willing to concede that power to the federal government.
He believes, however, that in no way, did the states anticipate a law like USERRA, then people suing for monetary damages over it, and therefore would not have consented to be sued over such things.
Justice Kavanaugh then asked, “We allow private suits in bankruptcy, such as Katz, and we also allow them in eminent domain suits, FMLA violation suits, etc., so why not for war-powers issues?”
Counsel Stone responded that these other decisions, such as Katz, were narrowly suited to those particular issues, which were not war-powers issues. So as much as they may seem similar, they’re not the same, and therefore don’t apply here.
Justice Kagan asked, “In what fucking world, could people sue under eminent domain, and somehow not be able to sue under the war-powers clause? Certainly war powers are more important to national security than eminent domain, right?”
Associate Justice Elena Kagan
Counsel Stone agreed that war powers are obviously pretty fucking important. But he argued that while no one doubts the federal government possesses the right to declare war and field an army, it didn’t grant the right for the people to sue the states over a law, that’s related to fielding an army. The states may have wanted to keep the power to determine for themselves, how best to provide the federal government with soldiers.
For instance, some states might want conscription, while others wants volunteers. There’s no evidence that the states gave the federal government the power to decide this issue for them.
Justice Barrett then asked, “If the states gave up this huge power to field and army and go to war, why would they seek to retain power over how to field the army. That seems rather irrelevant compared to what they gave up, right?”
He was like, “Nope. They guarded the hell outta that shit. If they didn’t specifically give it up, they have every right to expect to keep it.”
Justice Barrett then asked about the potential for states thwarting war efforts. For instance, after Vietnam, there was a lot of condemnation by states over the war, and many soldiers didn’t get the hero’s welcome they deserved upon returning home. So if DPS wins, can they then decide, for instance, if the US opts to get involved in helping Ukraine, that they don’t think it’s a good war, and refuse to participate with their soldiers?
Associate Justice Amy Coney Barrett
Counsel Stone responded that the US is perfectly fine to file suit against Texas, and in this scenario, would. That’s different from here, where Torres himself is filing suit.
Finally, in rebuttal, counsel Tutt reminded the court, that in the Federalist papers #23, Hamilton said that war powers ought to exist without limitation, because it’s impossible to see into the fucking future and know what’s needed.
This mother fucker on the other side of the aisle, is trying to limit it, and he’s fucking wrong for doing so. That’s all I got.
In a bipartisan majority, where justice Roberts and Kavanaugh joined Justices Breyer, Kagan, and Sotomayor, Torres came out victories.
They agree that by joining the United States, they agreed to give the federal government the power it needed to wage war, which extends to a private individual suing them, if the state were to violate a war-powers federal statute.
The remaining justices, wary of giving the federal government such unrestricted powers, disagreed. Their opinion hinged around giving private parties to sue, in relation to these federal powers. They felt that was just a step too god damn far.
Hear oral arguments, and read about the case, and the opinion here at OYEZ.
No one knew at the time, that it would be a landmark case, initially, it was your basic snooze fest. But, it has since been cited in other cases over 18,000 god damn times.
Was Chevron a fascinating case with a compelling opinion? That’s a big nope. And, since this isn’t our case today, I’m just going to give a simple overview.
But before we get into that, we need to explain a distinction I don’t think I’ve covered before.
In the United States, we tend to think that congress are the only people who write laws. While this is the framework the constitution lays out, it gets complicated.
The word law, for our purposes, is a generic term that basically encompasses anything the government has created to control, regulate, or restrain itself, or the people. But, there are five types of things that carry the weight of law, which have different purposes.
The Constitution: It is the document creating government and restraining government, which all other laws derive from. So it’s the shit. From there, if:
Congress wrote it: This is called a statute, often called an act. This is how the constitution suggests laws are to be passed, and aside from the constitution, they carry the most weight.
The courts wrote it: This is called case law, or precedent. The constitution didn’t really grant this power to the courts, SCOTUS gave it to themselves in Marbury v. Madison (1803), by suggesting the constitution gave them this power when it created the courts and ordered them to interpret law. (That said, congress can then rewrite the law—invalidating the opinion. However, if the courts strike down a law as unconstitutional, congress can’t just repass a law with the same unconstitutional premise—they’d need a constitutional amendment to do that.
The executive (president) wrote it: This is called an executive order. Also not in the constitution. It derives from the president’s authority to execute the law. It was not initially intended to be law, so much as a temporary order. If the president needed to act quickly in an emergency, and congress wouldn’t have time to act, the president needed some power to get shit done, so this is what they came up with. It carries the weight of law, but congress can simply write a new statute invalidating or clarifying it.
An agency wrote it: This is called a regulation. It is meant to expand upon laws (statutes) congress wrote, not to have been new law created from nothing.
As you can see, congress ultimately has the broadest power to write laws, since they can invalidate any other forms of law, aside from the constitution itself.
President Barack Obama delivers a health care address to a joint session of Congress at the United States Capitol in Washington, D.C., Sept. 9, 2009. (Official White House Photo by Lawrence Jackson)
This case will specifically hinge around statutes and regulations, so I will make sure to use those terms appropriately. I wanted to make sure you, the reader, understand those distinctions, as this case is all about that shit.
We all know about the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), right? Well, the 1970 Clean Air Act was their jam. It had a rule that said any new major “stationary sources” of pollution had to have a permit.
The idea was, if you had a factory or some large device in a place of business which was putting out pollutants, when it came time to replace that shit or build a new one elsewhere, it required a permit. The permit would then require that the replacement was cleaner than it’s outgoing counterpart.
However, to make life easier, if a company had for instance, a group of major polluting devices that worked in concert together at one location, then one of the components of that group took a shit, the company could replace it without obtaining a new permit, so long as the replacement component didn’t increase the total pollution coming out of the whole “bubble” of devices, as they called it.
It didn’t have to be better, just equal.
So, Chevron went about replacing one of these polluting devices, without upgrading it, under this bubble rule.
Great googly moogly, did that piss off environmentalists—they were none too fucking pleased. They wanted it replaced with a cleaner device.
Since the Clean Air Act (a statute written by congress, remember) didn’t really define a “stationary source” very well, the EPA (a regulatory agency) wrote the “bubble” rule into their regulation to clarify.
In their infinite wisdom, they felt it was a reasonable interpretation of the Clean Air Act’s intent—they were the experts after all. They didn’t think that just needing to repair an otherwise operative system somehow meant a company had to overhaul it completely. Not to mention, sometimes upgrading one component would require upgrading all of them, which could get really expensive.
But of course, environmentalists are the most nauseating group of social justice warriors that ever lived, and they decided to file suit, arguing that the EPA had no right to create this definition out of nowhere, just because it wasn’t well-defined in the Clean Air Act.
SCOTUS however, decided that since the Clean Air Act was ambiguous on this shit, and the EPA were the fucking experts, in such situations the court should defer to their judgement.
This one ruling, and the precedent it set, eventually translated into the idea that all government agencies should be deferred to, going forward, if they made a regulation in their expertise, that clarified ambiguous statutes written by congress, used to create the agency, or written to be regulated by that agency. It became known as the Chevron Deference, and it has been case law ever since.
As you can imagine, with a lot of government agencies, and a shit-ton of regulations, it makes sense that this case has been cited 18,000 times.
Now that you understand the basics of Chevron, let’s move on to our case today.
A group of fisherman (Loper Bright Enterprises) liked to fish in federal waters. But in this country, we often have a problem with over-fishing, where these commercial vessels take so many fish, that those populations of fish can’t reproduce fast enough to keep the species around for others to fish later.
Congress had had enough of this shit. They passed the Magnuson-Stevens Act (MSA), which is enforced by the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS), a federal agency, similar to the EPA referenced in the Chevron case above, albeit much smaller.
I know what you’re thinking. You’re thinking, “So how the hell does the government make sure that some asshole fishermen don’t overfish an area? They’re in the middle of the fucking ocean!”
No, it’s not with satellites, or sharks with laser beams on their fucking heads. They decided that they would require these fishermen to take a fed out on the boat with them. What made it worse to the fishermen, they had to fucking pay that fed to sail with them.
Imagine, in order to prevent speeding, if the Highway Patrol made you carry an officer in the car with you, and pay their salary for doing so. It’s hyperbolic, and just used to illustrate the point, but you can see why they might have beef with this.
The Magnuson-Stevens Act passed by congress didn’t specify this was the plan, but the NMFS decided to write that regulation, presumably because they couldn’t afford to pay these narks on their own budget. Since Chevron suggested such ambiguous law could rightly be clarified by them, they fucking went for it.
Under Chevron, the courts couldn’t really undo the rules made by NMFS, since the MSA didn’t create a clear rule for them to follow. So that’s why we’re here. To determine if these fishermen have a fair beef with NMFS, and potentially, if a previous SCOTUS was running a little fast and loose when creating this Chevron deference shit.
I’m going to go out on a limb, and explain the politics of this, because why the fuck not.
It’s important to understand a couple things. Remember, regulatory agencies are created by statutes which congress writes, but then the head of that agency is appointed by the president (with the consent of congress), and can by fired by that president, if the president is unhappy with the work they’re doing.
As such, a regulatory agency, is essentially, part of the executive branch.
So the concern, is that there are situations where the president might want congress to pass a statute, but Congress simply don’t have the votes to do so.
So what may happen, is the president looks at the regulatory agencies they oversee, and if one has some tacit connection to the statute they wanted passed, but couldn’t get passed, they tell the head of that agency to write a regulation that resembles the law they wanted. And then—abracadabra-alakazam—you have a law, and you didn’t need congress to pass it.
Since the constitutional principle of separation of powers suggests laws are to be passed by congress as statutes, and not the executive orders or regulations that come from the president, you can understand the separation of powers issue some people have.
People on the right tend to be for limited government, or at least that’s what they say, so they aren’t keen to give presidents this much power.
For Democrats, they argue that if a law is ambiguous about something, it makes sense for regulatory agencies to clarify. They’re the fucking experts, and it’s why congress creates these agencies in the first place.
For instance, imagine congress passes a law that creates the EPA, and says they’re supposed to ensure that the CO2 levels in the air stay within a range that’s acceptable for all current life on earth.
Since they don’t provide an actual number, it’s ambiguous.
So then they rely on the nerds at the EPA to do some science, come up with a number, and make that the regulation. Scientists are open to revising their beliefs based on new information, so if they find out their number is wrong, they can easily update the regulation based on the new science they did.
But you know who wouldn’t figure out what that number is? The fucking courts. They’re law nerds, not science nerds.
Now that you understand both political arguments, you know what I think? They’re both fucking right! They’re making extremely valid points.
Here’s where the politics come in. The left argue that the right are basically rebuking the expertise of the scientists, and instead, acting like they can do just as good of a job interpreting this shit.
They argue that this “separation of powers” issue is swamp gas. But this, I have a problem with.
I won’t re-explain the whole thing here, just know these basic facts.
Joe Biden is not an expert in virology or communicable diseases.
During the COVID pandemic, Joe Biden wanted congress to pass a law requiring everyone get vaccinated, and if not, to wear a mask in public. Presumably for as long as the CDC suggested we were in a pandemic.
Democrats were tacitly supportive of this, but Republicans were like, “Absolutely not! This is America. We’re a free country, and we don’t do shit like this.”
Joe Biden, being the senile by crafty fucker he is, unable to get congress to pass such a law, asked OSHA to make a regulation requiring vaccinations or a mask in the workplace, instead. This effectively would have had almost the same effect as the law he wanted, since the unemployment rate is only about 4%.
SCOTUS overruled that regulation, and Biden lost. But at the time, for whatever reason, they did not overturn Chevron.
President Joe Biden
So like it or not, there was a real world example of precisely what the right-wing were complaining about, that is quite recent, and quite true. A non-expert president, overstepped his constitutional authority, and bypassed congress to achieve his political goals.
So accusing the right of being conspiratorial and shit, is pretty unfair, in this case.
Anyway, now that you know all that, on to the arguments…
Up first, for the Loper Bright team, represented by veteran SCOTUS counsel Paul Clement.
Paul Clement
He opened first, by arguing that the expense of lugging around, and paying for, a fed on a fishing boat isn’t insignificant. It can be as much as 20% of their cost, for a smaller operation.
Not to mention, some of these boats are small, and an extra person gets in the way.
But then, he went after the big fish—the Chevron deference itself.
He spent most of his opening remarks saying that this deference was wrongly decided, and should be abandoned, while maintaining that the Chevron case itself was probably fairly decided.
His argument is that the courts need not determine whether the statute is ambiguous, and therefore a regulatory agency has the unquestionable right to clarify. But instead, that the courts should do what they always do, give their opinion as to what the best reading of the statute is.
Justice Thomas started by asking counsel about mandamus. What is mandamus you ask? I had to look that shit up, too.
Mandamus is when the courts, issue an order to a lower government official, telling them to do their fucking job the way they think that person ought to do it, under the law.
So for instance, if a higher court thinks a lower court have wrongly denied an innocent person their freedom on appeal, and that lower court refuses to take the actions needed to release the person, maybe because they’re arrogant cunts who think they could not have possibly fucked up, they may use a writ of mandamus and basically say, “We weren’t asking, motherfucker—release him now.”
So the nature of his question, is about whether higher courts should tell lower courts how to consider these questions, versus what the opposition wants, which is to defer to regulatory agencies and their expertise, in matters where the law isn’t very specific.
Clement was like, “the constitution gave the power to interpret law to the fucking courts. Then your predecessors, in Chevron, basically gave that power away to the executive branch, since regulatory agencies answer to the president. That’s some grade A bullshit, right there.”
So in summary, he’s saying it’s a separation of powers issue, and the court was wrong to relinquish that power. Unless we’re to amend the constitution, interpreting statutes is the job of the fucking courts.
So if a statute is ambiguous, either congress needs to rewrite it, or the courts get to interpret it. The courts are certainly free to agree with a regulatory agency, but Chevron suggests they shouldn’t even look at the agency’s regulation if the statute is ambiguous, and that shit is wrong.
Justice Sotomayor, digging her heels in early, accused Clement of using some wonderful rhetoric.
Official Portrait of United States Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor
Click for Biography
She stated that if a statute uses the word “reasonable,” that it’s delegating the authority to define what is reasonable to the agency the statute created.
However, Clement was having none of this shit. He was like, “the law on domestic fisheries is that they shouldn’t incur more than 2-3% of the cost of the catch—clearly they fucking thought about this issue.
So by what reason would your dumb ass think a 20% expense for these fishermen fishing off-shore waters is what congress intended? Have you ever even running a fucking business?”
While I’m sure the regulatory agency feels empowered to do such a thing, their power comes from congress, and congress wrote similar provisions into the statute where they capped it much lower.
So the problem with Chevron is, courts would normally answer statute questions—they’re the fucking experts on that. They should be well within their wheelhouse to look at one, and say, “this dog doesn’t fucking hunt.”
Justice Roberts, coming to the defense of Chevron asked, “It seems to me, you’re arguing that the law is not ambiguous, and therefore Chevron doesn’t apply. Right?”
Supreme Court of the United States Chief Justice John Roberts
Counsel Clement was like, “let me put it another way. Chevron says, if you look at a law, and you think you could interpret it in more than one way, you assholes normally decide what the best interpretation is.
That’s your fucking job.
So why would it make sense, in this Chevron context, to all of a sudden be like, ‘Nah, we’ll let the president and his fucking minions sort this shit out.’?”
Justice Kagan chimed in next and said, “Listen you little fuckwit. In normal statutes, if congress writes a shitty fucking law, you’re right. We’re on our own interpreting that shit. We do our best best with our legal expertise.
But if there’s a law that creates an agency, congress has given us a tool to answer such questions in the form of experts. Hell, you could even argue, that the law specifically created the agency to answer those questions. But you’re saying we should shove that tool squarely up our asses and ignore it? I think not.
We’ll use that tool, because a lot of times, they fucking understand the issue way better than we do, and why the fuck wouldn’t we defer to them when congress created them for that purpose?”
Counsel Clement then tried to argue that they had an amicus brief from the House of representatives saying it doesn’t want Chevron. But boy did he fuck up mentioning this, because Justice Kagan fucking drilled him.
She rightly pointed out that congress has the power right now to overturn any aspect of Chevron it wants with new law. Clearly they fucking don’t have the votes. For forty fucking years, they haven’t done so. So you and I both know, it’s just a bunch of your right-wing assholes that wrote that shit, not congress as a whole.
Associate Justice Elena Kagan
Counsel Clement regained his composure, and put Justice Kagan back on blast with this:
It’s really convenient for some members of Congress not to have to tackle the hard questions and to rely on their friends in the executive branch to get them everything they want. I also think Justice Kavanaugh is right that even if Congress did it, the president would veto it.
And I think the third problem is, and fundamentally even more problematic, is if you get back to that fundamental premise of Chevron that when there’s silence or ambiguity, we know the agency wanted to delegate to the agency.
That is just fictional, and it’s fictional in a particular way, which is it assumes that ambiguity is always a delegation. But ambiguity is not always a delegation.
And more often, what ambiguity is, I don’t have enough votes in Congress to make it clear, so I’m going to leave it ambiguous, that’s how we’re going to get over the bicameralism and presentment hurdle, and then we’ll give it to my friends in the agency and they’ll take it from here.
And that ends up with a phenomenon where we have major problems in society that aren’t being solved because, instead of actually doing the hard work of legislation where you have to compromise with the other side at the risk of maybe drawing a primary challenger, you rely on an executive branch friend to do what you want.
And it’s not hypothetical.
He’s not wrong. The above Biden example, with his OSHA vaccine mandate—is exactly what counsel Clement is pointing out.
Counsel Clement also mentioned a “Brand X” decision often in his arguments, citing it as a prime example supporting his argument.
He’s referring to National Cable & Telecommunications Association v. Brand X Internet Services. A case where the Rehnquist court in 2005, decided that Brand X, a broadband internet company, who was trying to avoid telecommunications regulations by saying it was an internet company, won their case, because the FCC basically stated they weren’t a telecommunications company, and Chevron deference meant the courts were supposed to simply accept that shit—which they did.
His argument was that the courts didn’t agree with the FCC, but the Chevron precedent suggested they had to go with the FCC’s interpretation whether they liked it or not.
Clement seemed to be arguing that this is an opportunity for the court to say, “You know what, we have the power, not these fucking agencies. We’re not handing the power over entirely anymore, we’re taking it back.
His other underlying concern, is that these agencies are vast and varied. So their decisions create new conflicts and precedents, where one agency might decide one way, and another addressing the same exact ambiguity, might regulate in a polar opposite way.
This is in contrast to the courts, who have case law and precedent, which aims to make consistent, things like this.
He even went on to attack congress rather directly, saying that the minority are using Chevron deference to get the president, if they agree with them, to pass laws as regulations, where they know they don’t have the votes to pass themselves. That’s not a soft jab, that’s a straight bomb to the face.
It’s a clear argument that Chevron is leading to direct violations of the separation of powers doctrine our constitution lays out.
Justice Alito asked counsel Clement about what he thinks changed since Chevron was decided. Was it right then, but wrong now?
Associate Justice Samuel Alito
Counsel Clement first laid out that the courts seem to have embraced textualism more, now.
Textualism just means that the courts interpret the laws as written, not how they think congress may have intended.
He points out, that he thinks the courts were simply wrongly removed from the equation entirely, with Chevron.
If the regulation is based on the expertise of the agency, the courts could and should recognize as much, and let it stand. But the courts should not just assume that’s true and walk away before even examining it.
If the courts recognize that it’s not a regulation based on expertise, but instead, based on politics where the minority and the executive are bypassing congress, the courts should step in and put a stop to it.
Justice Kagan, not a fan of Clement’s position, asked, “we have over 70 SCOTUS cases that relied on Chevron, and over 17,000 lower court cases relied on it. You want us to blow all the shit to kingdom come? What the fuck is wrong with you? The courts will be inundated with new cases, dogs will be sleeping with cars, it’ll be total chaos!”
Clement was like, “I’m not suggesting you blow up anything. No need to revisit a bunch of old cases. I’m suggesting you have the power to interpret law. Not congress. So why the fuck would you entirely give that power to congress, in this context?”
He specifically even said:
I don’t think you actually want to invite, in all candor, that particular fox into your henhouse and tell you how to go about interpreting statutes or how to go about dealing with qualified immunity defenses.
It is rather interesting he’s trying to get the courts to take power back, and the left-leaning justices seem very unwilling to take it.
I know this is disrespectful or arrogant, and I feel bad even saying it, but I think this is a case of political ideology clouding judgement. These justices are toeing a line their political compatriots want them to, instead of thinking critically. But I will try to remain humble, and open to the idea that I’m wrong here.
Clement went on to say, “Listen, I’m not saying overturn a shit ton of cases that relied on Chevron. Again, all I’m saying, is the court shouldn’t remove itself entirely. If the agency can demonstrate to the court, it’s decision is based on expertise the courts don’t have, then the courts should certainly let that shit ride, and not decide it themselves.
But if the courts recognize it’s simple politics, and not expertise, tell them to go pound sand up their ass.
However, Chevron is saying that they shouldn’t even analyze this, and that’s the problem Clement has.
Next up for the government, Solicitor General Elizabeth Prelogar.
Solicitor General Elizabeth Barchas Prelogar
She started off by saying the opposition acknowledges that congress can grant authority to agencies, allowing the executive to fill in the gaps they may leave in their legislation for an expert the executive appoints, to fill.
If so, then what the fuck is this grand attack on Chevron? If congress can expressly delegate those powers, why can’t they implicitly delegate them?
She also pointed out stare decisis (latin for “Stand by what’s decided”). The courts generally don’t like to overrule themselves, because then the law is all over the fucking place. Ain’t nobody got time for that.
So she argues, the court could clarify or build upon Chevron, while maintaining the basic principle, as overruling it entirely violates stare decisis.
Justice Thomas started by asking about situations where the law is ambiguous, versus the law is just silent.
General Prolegar pointed out that there are several provisions in the act pertaining to the fishery that talk about how it would be monitored, and by whom. So she argues that the statute isn’t silent at all.
Associate Justice Clarence Thomas
Justice Neil “Golden Voice” Gorsuch was like, OK if you think this statute is clear, and we think it’s clear, isn’t that the kind of shit we interpret every day? Why should we defer that to someone else?
He then asked, “if we all, in this room, think it’s clear, but a lower court didn’t think it was, isn’t that a fucking problem?
Isn’t that evidence that interpreting the statute is almost always ambiguous? If experts on law like us, can come to two different interpretations, there has to be some ambiguousness.
If so, then this Chevron test itself, is too ambiguous? Certainly we’re not supposed to give up on interpreting every statue and related regulation and let agencies handle it? We’re the experts on statutes, not regulatory agencies.
So we should decide if it’s a statutory issue, or an issue of expertise. If it’s statutory, then we fucking decide it. The nerds can handle the other shit.”
He points out that the “ambiguity” trigger in Chevron is so vague, we can’t even decide if it applies to this case or not.
I understand if congress specifically gives the authority to the agency to answer a question in the statute. But you lost me at the idea we should just infer it if the language seems unclear to anyone. That’s crazy talk!”
Associate Justice Neil Gorsuch
Counsel Prelogar pointed out that when creating an agency, congress wholly understands its limits of expertise. It purposefully leaves gaps in these laws for these agencies to fill in with regulation, and they have the authority to do so. All Chevron does is recognize that, and honor what congress intended.
Justice Barrett then asked about the previous Brand X ruling, that used the Chevron deference as it’s underpinning. She asked, “Brand X basically said, even if we, the court, have an opinion about the law, and we think it’s better than the regulatory agency’s interpretation, if the court deems the agency’s interpretation is fair or reasonable, it has to go with the interpretation, and ignore what the court thinks is best. But you’re saying we don’t do that, we just use our best judgement based on all the interpretations?”
General Prelogar said she didn’t read Brand X that way. She felt that if the court could see congress did or didn’t delegate the authority to the agency in Step 1 (the statute), then there was no need to go to step 2 (the regulation) and decide if the regulation is fair or reasonable—the court should defer to the agency.
This talk of steps should probably be explained. Chevron was a two-step process.
Step one was to determine if the law was ambiguous or not. If it wasn’t, then Chevron doesn’t apply, and the courts should interpret the statue or regulation, how they see fit.
If the courts believe the statute is ambiguous, then they go to step 2, and determine if the regulation the agency wrote to clear up that ambiguity is reasonable. If it is, then the courts should defer to it, as opposed to coming up with their own interpretation.
Justice Barrett seemed concerned that there’s a facet of step 1 that says they don’t even go to step 2. Barrett’s argument is that the courts should at least go to step 2 and consider the regulation. Step 2 could have some pretty repugnant shit that the courts would never allow.
Associate Justice Amy Coney Barrett
Justice Roberts asked if Chevron applies to constitutional questions.
Sometimes the court just clears up ambiguously written law, but sometimes it weighs whether the law is even constitutional.
So if step 1 (the statute) is ambiguous, and step 2 (the regulation) is unconstitutional in the court’s eyes, Chevron seems to suggest the courts should still allow the unconstitutional regulation, because they were not supposed to even go to step 2.
But General Prelogar, conceding Justice Robert’s point, suggested Chevron was not meant to block constitutional questions, only to clarify statutory questions.
Counsel Prelogar suggested that they’re interpreting Chevron wrong. It isn’t that the courts don’t even get to step 2. Her opinion is that they always would.
They look at step one and simply determine if the statute is ambiguous. If it isn’t ambiguous, they would ensure that step 2 jibes with step 1, or is constitutional.
If the statute is ambiguous, then they look at step 2, and see if the regulation is reasonable, and presumably constitutional. If it is, then they roll with that shit, instead of trying to interpret it better themselves. If it isn’t reasonable, then they do what they do best—strike that shit and rewrite it.
Either way, they always get to step 2.
After this, Justice Gorsuch and General Prelogar went on a lengthy back and forth about the idea that when considering a statute, congress goes through a lengthy process, where voters can petition their congressperson, and give their opinions before a statute is passed.
Associate Justice Neil Gorsuch
But regulatory agencies just pass regulations without telling anyone, necessarily.
Justice Gorsuch is concerned that the people’s government isn’t consulting the people when regulations are passed, and Chevron cuts the people out even more.
He even reiterated the idea that every person gets their day in court, if they want it. But this deference rule sort of says, well, if the law is ambiguous, and the regulation says they don’t, then fuck ’em. They can’t get their day in court.
Justice Sotomayor went back and asked about Clement’s previous argument in regards to the 20% cost of the catch estimates, which are too unworkable, and would often leave these fisherman with no profit margin left.
General Prelogar responded that this 20% number they came up with, were from a land of pure imagination.
This was an estimate provided that it said it could go as high as 20%. In the real world where we live, it falls in the 2-3% like the others he mentioned.
She went on to say, that even if it were higher, the agency provided for waivers and exemptions, if it was truly an unworkable burden for them. So in her opinion, Clement was talking shit.
Supreme Court of the United States
I think we’ve talked about the Major Questions Doctrine, before in the aforementioned OSHA case. But it’s worth reiterating that the current court feels that major questions are to be answered by congress, not regulator agencies, working as minions for the president.
Again, citing the OSHA case, it was effectively saying the entire working population should get vaccinated, or wear a mask when at work. That’s a major question, as it affects about 96% of the population. The right-wing segment of the court things such questions should be handled by congress, who are answerable to the people if they vote that way, and should not be sneakily pushed through an agency at the president’s behest instead.
General Prelogar knows this court’s majority agrees with this doctrine, so she made an effort to suggest that Chevron is workable within the major questions doctrine, because again, she’s suggesting that Chevron allows for the courts to analyze both steps, the statutory and regulatory, and decide if there’s some sort of over-reach, or other political bullshit going on, and rule accordingly.
Convincing them of that, is probably her only chance of winning this shit.
Counsel Clement did get an opportunity for rebuttal at the end.
He made the point that because of Chevron, members of congress who want to achieve something controversial, which they know would not pass the house and senate, would purposefully make a law ambiguous. Then, they would lean on a sympathetic president to push the agency under their control, to write a clarifying regulation the way that they wanted to pass the law, but couldn’t.
So he feels that overturning Chevron is necessary to shut this shit down.
And overturn it, they did.
2024 Supreme Court of the United States
In a 6:3 partisan split, where Justices Sotomayor, Kagan, and Jackson dissented, SCOTUS sided with Loper Bright, and while doing so, rebuked the Chevron deference.
The majority’s opinion is pragmatic, in my opinion. We’ve covered the political arguments over this case fairly well, and the courts reiterated them.
They agree, that expert opinions, on areas where expertise is warranted, should be considered, and accepted, if they are reasonable interpretations, they don’t violate any constitutional principles, and it seems fair that the statute used to create that agency, give them the power to make such a regulation.
So the left’s argument that the courts are looking to overrule experts in areas that they don’t have expertise, is hyperbolic nonsense, usually reserved for assholes in congress, not the Supreme Court.
So as an example, if congress writes a law asking the EPA to regulate the air in such a way as to ensure healthy air to breathe for humans, and then the EPA writes a regulation saying the air should have no more than 100 parts per million (PPM) of some harmful pollutant, because studies have shown, that more than 100PPM is when it becomes statistically significant to human health, the courts will and should recognize the court is out of it’s bailiwick, and not try to answer that question better.
If the regulation in question however, seems more about statutory interpretation, then the courts can and should consider how they’d interpret it, and if they feel their interpretation is better, they should have no qualms smacking down the regulatory agency.
For example, if congress passes a statute asking the EPA to regulate the air quality, and the EPAs response is to enact some political scheme that bans fossil fuels, that may be a problem. The courts should consider that as a major question, and decide whether that’s an agency’s expertise, or a political question for congress to decide with the consent of the people.
Because, it’s possible fossil fuels could have a place in the market, along side cleaner energy, and banning them completely isn’t really science at all, but a political ideology being put into play.
Hear oral arguments, read about the case, and the opinion here at Oyez.com
Here is another great video from Yale law professor Jed Rubenfeld, explaining it more professionally, than yours truly.
log·i·cal: capable of reasoning or of using reason in an orderly cogent fashion lib·er·tar·i·an: an advocate of the doctrine of free will; a person who upholds the principles of individual liberty especially of thought and action